discernment required! kiesha crowther revisited

I just thought of something but me being a dummy it could be wrong.

With the American native tribes she is associated with and asked her to be a shaman wouldn't they have come out by now and said she is a fraud????? if she was.

Reunite wrote:

You may find a certain someone over there with a list of new age buzz words to avoid from their INTENSE research.

hey, FL, if you see something i do not, gimme a lil hint, puhleeze

First hint -

444

Reunite wrote:

First hint -

444

anyone else can jump in here and help me, right?

um, "first" hint suggests there is another?

ok second hint -

'I had a lot of followers, they couldn't just ban me'

Micjer hit the nail on the head.

Now I don't know if she's on the forum, just thought maybe since it's a new age fraud site.

i didn't feel any of that there ... i musta missed sumthin, but hey, i'm old ....

hey Hippie
i've been claimin the old thing all day...guess we hafta share..

Hi, I'm new here and I apologise for my poor ettiquette for jumping in on a controversial matter, but I've been following the thread at the NAFPS site and I'm afraid I couldn't keep silent.

Biggles wrote:

With the American native tribes she is associated with and asked her to be a shaman wouldn't they have come out by now and said she is a fraud????? if she was.

I think this is precisely what they are saying, as the original thread makes clear (note the postings of Ashla in particular - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.225). No-one in the native comunities knows her. I think the reason why not many people outside NAFPS are makng much noise (yet) is because she's not been around very long, and also there are so many others of her type they probably get a bit weary of it.

Please everyone also note the postings of the user "Cresent", an ex-follower, who notes some disturbing cult-like and controlling behaviour going on - a bit 2012-doomsdayish with potential echos of Heaven's Gate.

If you think she's genuine because the message is "beautiful" and "from the heart", the problem is she's not telling the truth about herself. She's either lying or very deluded, which calls into question her personal integrity and tarnishes her words a bit. If the message is close the "what you feel anyway", then you don't need her to tell you these things and don't need to pay her any attention?

I feel strongly about this kind of thing, not just because spiritual searchers are taken in, but because it hurts genuine native culture and spirituality. Please take a bit of time to read the following links (apologies to anyone how's seen all this before):

http://www.newagefraud.org/index.html
http://nuagetricksters.bravehost.com/
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html

I know how it is, as the first paragraph of the NAFPS home page in particular decribes myself a few years ago, and I've had to do quite a bit of soul-searching of my own. I've had to learn to forget this "wannabe Indian" stuff and look for spiritual enrichment in my own culture (which is British and western). It's difficult to get out of your comfort zone, but I'd urge you all to open to the message in the sites listed above.

Best,
Luna

Hey Luna nice to see ya !

Its not as 'hairy' as it looks!

You bring up some very good points.

Hi Luna.

Thanks for your input. We are an open minded bunch here and always welcome new input.

Yes avoidance of a cult is very important. I like her message, but believe me I would not drink the kool-aid if it was required.

Thank you for the welcomes and for not flaming me... I didn't want to come accross as some sort of troll, and I'm glad it's not been taken that way!

I discovered these links after reading something said by Philip Shallcrass of the British Druid Order. I can't find the actual link now, but he described how he had visited and made friends with the Quileute people in the Pacific Northwest, and had been accepted into some of their ceremonies. He thought the reason they trusted him was because as a druid was part of a strong indiginous tradition of his own, and therefore they didn't suspect him of any cultural appropriation. I thought this interesing and did a few google searches on "cultural appropriation" in relation to native Americans. OMG what a wake-up call. I'd had little awareness of this issue before, and no idea of the strength of feeling.

I don't want to bombard this site with too many more links, but thought this one would be worth adding as it's less angry and more measured in tone than the others and might be easier to digest: http://www.anti-politics.net/distro/2009/wantingtobeNDN-read.pdf

Thought I'd also add this article because one line in particular stood out - a very practical reason why native communities feel harmed: http://www.manataka.org/page1113.html

Quote :

... consequently the younger generation of Indians who are trying to find their way back to the Old Ways becomes hopelessly lost in this morass of consumerist spirituality.

I'm pleased I've found an open bunch... thank you for taking the time to look at this.



Luna

Quote :

True spiritual leaders do not make a profit from their teachings, whether it's through selling books, workshops, sweat lodges, or otherwise. Spiritual leaders teach the people because it is their responsibility to pass what they have learned from their elders to the youngest generations. They do not charge for their services.

Thanks for the link and does help to explain what the real problem is.

The above quote stands out for me and is the very reason why most on here have been turned off by Drunvalo M. He 's got the truth but it will cost you $150.00!

oh, luna, thank you, thank you for appearing here, to add your voice
and share what you have discovered/realized - i think you have
narrowed down the issue(s) here and come to a similar conclusion
as i, and presented it in such a respectful manner

Hi luna,

Cultural appropriation is a path I've yet to explore in detail, so thanks for the links.

BTW welcome to the forum

Hi Luna and welcome

the person who mostly flamed new posters has left the building....for now..

you and whatever your opinion is are more than welcome...i think we are all smart enough to understand
the difference between an honest opinion and other stuff
and by hearing others opinions..even if we disagree..we grow

so thanks for coming in and watering us plants...

hi to all. I came across this site & thread while looking for more information on Kiesha. It is interesting reading all of your posts - for their content, but also because whatever your position you all seem to be treating the topic, and her, with respect.
I do not know yet whether or not she is 'real'. I sense that her heart is genuine and that she believes what she says. She is lovely...as are her messages of love and care for each other and the earth. I see nothing in them as fraud or a scam.
But there are 'red flags' for me. One is - she does make some incorrect statements in her videos. And some of the claims she has made for this year will soon be proven to be true or untrue. Of course, she is 'only human'. But when you set yourself up as a Wisdom Keeper and leader, I feel it is important to be stating the truth.

Another cause for hesitation for me is the strength of the group around her. They do control what is posted in their forums, and who is allowed to remain. I had not experienced this personally until I recently posted the youtube video I will try to link here. I do not know if it is genuine - which is why I was asking them if they could please explain or give some information on it. Within a few hours someone e-mailed me and told me it had been deleted from the site, and I found I had also been 'deleted'! :)) I was blocked. And what that tells me, as it always tells me when someone tries to erase an opinion that is contradictory, is that there is something to hide. If you are truthful and genuine, you should be able to defend your truths and not be threatened by questions.
And if the video IS real, then I am saddened by another misuse of Native American symbols and spirituality, and a life story that may involve fabrication.

There is money to be made in the spiritual movements. A lot of it. I don't 'get' that this was/is Kiesha's original aim, nor do I sense that she wishes for the power that comes with it all. But her talks are not inexpensive, nor is her upcoming journey to Egypt. It may be that the people who have gathered around her will use her for their own profit.
And I may be wrong about this all.

Love and compassion and respect for each other and all living things is terribly important, perhaps more at this time than any other in our existence.
Because of or in spite of the messenger. :) Thank you for all your thoughts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpC-9S1Bplk

wellllll i've said it before and i'll say it yet again

cults, folllowers, etc all come into being because they do not think for themselves
for whatever the reason...karma, stupidity, habit..whatever....

so that when someone makes a strong statment they collect people who are pro and con
i don't understand the waste of energy on calling names
and arguing their point of view against someone else's

listen with an open mind and heart
take what you can use and
move on

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezeeee, already...get over it

isn't it time to step out of that old circle and move on?

..stepping down now

Hi and welcome whitewoman.


I can see why they would delete the above vid as it does go against their group and questions the truth of it all.

We won't delete it or you from here however.

@sky otter... ummm...your icon doesn't look like you're stepping down any time soon... :))

oh, thanks, micjer. I didn't see your post of welcome.

re: them deleting the post. yeah. I know. But I still think if you are what you say you are you should be able to withstand questioning. And not throw out people who ask them in faith. Especially since my posts there had been welcomed previously.

I think remember a recent president who screened everyone who came to his rallies, too.
:)

here is website of
confederated salish and kootenai tribes of the flathead reservation
which is referenced in the above vid ....
no mention of kiesha or shamans in the very detailed info ...



http://www.cskt.org/index.htm

Thanks, WH
You're right. Nothing there.
& I'm quite sure they have more important issues to worry about...

I just sent an e-mail to the contact on the site, asking if they know anything about it all.
I also have a friend who's a tribal lawyer.
If I find out anything I'll post.

Thanks again for the replies