Some feedback needed for this idea please guys.

Anchor and Reunite, and any other aussies help me out here, as well comments from any other lovely forum members.

I was thinking with the tens of thousands that might probably be homeless in the future because of the socioeconomic environment in Oz and the coming spiritual change, that buying a tract of land (I was thinking hilly areas of Queensland maybe guys?) and seeing if a community of like minded people could create a self sustainable environment of nuturing, caring and helping each other.

What do you guys think. I am not of'ae with the areas in Queensland but have been looking on line. The thing is how many acres would you need with a natural spring in it for sustaining people, and how many people would you be looking at to sustain per acre?

I ran this by someone else in the forum area to which they replied not a good idea, because you do not really know what people are like so to speak and this whole idea could go haywire because of different personalities and control issues, etc, etc.

I would love it if spiritual minded people could work together, socialise together, help each other and live together without having to worry about having to work for TPTB.

If some of you could help me out with this I would appreciate it.

The other thing is I have for years now had this idea of building dwellings which are mostly underground with say one third above the ground for obvious reasons.

I believe that is why Project Avalon was set-up for in the first place.. the possibilites of setting up a small community by self sufficent means is def. feasible but not an easy task. Having co-ownership can cause problems. I know from first hand experience when my parents went half's in a property with a family friend..some years later there were disagreements and the land was sold to finalize differences.

Having said that under different circumstances like a complete collapse of the monetary system will bring like minded souls in unison and work collectively to support each other.

Now I'm not too sure on the logistic side as far as how many people would you be looking at to sustain per acre, maybe Anchor can answer that one or even Zuni who has experience living off the land.

Going back to my parents property they used to own was in a special location. It was around the border of NSW and Queensland. Not far from Mullumbimby and 45 min. drive from Byron Bay, that area is known for alternative/hippie like communities. Their property was in the middle of lush rainforest up in the hills with a water hole and plenty of sustainable land to grow food. I miss that place so immensely..I can't tell you how much!

Hint Hint check that area out Biggs

You really don't need much for sustainance, but the more the better. I will get some data from the bible (Carla Emery - Encylopedia of Country Living) and post it this weekend.

I don't hold out much hope for most of Queensland -remember it was two thirds underwater this year just from rain as it is, and that is before any coastal "events". At least choose somewhere that is 180m or more above sea level.

I think anywhere along the great dividing range should be ok, especially the middle and southerly parts.

There are some groups in Melbourne that are starting some projects like this - based on the Ringing Cedars style thinking.

Reunite is correct that co-ownership is a hassle - especially as there may not be a functional legal system or land regsitry post any SHTF scenario. This is certainly old paradigm thinking, but you have to be practical right now where we are, because there is work to do before the real problems start. There are ways around problems like these - there has been some clever thinking with using land trusts and some legal frameworks that ensure there is a process for asset protection in the event that someone wants to exit. It is totally wrong to view this as an investment opportunity or "shared wealth" - if anyone does that, it will go wrong.

Here is a thread I started on PA: "Group Survival" http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11692

There is a lot of negativity encountered with these ideas because people persist in old paradigm thinking. My planning is based on new paradigm thinking, based on the law of attraction and the manifestation process - so I am not burdened that way.

A..

Thanks guys,

I knew you both could come up with some trains of thought for me to look into.

As you said, before one starts to go down this track, you have to cover all your bases, which of course I did not do, typical me, LOL.

So I will look at your link Anchor, thank you again. The ringing cedars I have always looked on fondly and I will have to follow that one up.

I have been looking at some highland country in Victoria. There are some places not far from Mount Buffalo like Merrijig, and way before that around Eildon I have been looking at on line.

It gets so confusing for me guys, but I am putting out the thoughts to help steer me in the right direction.

Thanks Anchor and Reunite once again. Big cuddles for ya. xxoo

The word you need is Permaculture.

Actually some great books on it seem to be only available in Australia...

Permaculture is an approach to designing human settlements and perennial agricultural systems that mimic the relationships found in the natural ecologies. It was first developed by Australians Bill Mollison and David Holmgren and their associates during the 1970s in a series of publications. The word permaculture is a portmanteau of permanent agriculture, as well as permanent culture.

The intent was that, by rapidly training individuals in a core set of design principles, those individuals could design their own environments and build increasingly self-sufficient human settlements — ones that reduce society's reliance on industrial systems of production and distribution that Mollison identified as fundamentally and systematically destroying Earth's ecosystems.

While originating as an agro-ecological design theory, permaculture has developed a large international following. This 'permaculture community' continues to expand on the original ideas, integrating a range of ideas of alternative culture, through a network of publications, permaculture gardens, intentional communities, training programs, and internet forums. In this way, permaculture has become both a design system and a loosely defined philosophy or lifestyle ethic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

How much land does one person need to sustain themselves?


Spartacus,

Well, how much land depends on the kind of land, soil types, orientation to equator, tropical or temperate, wet or dry, etc. How self sufficient do you want to be? Veggies, fruit, grains, animals? Each of those need more space than the preceding component. Knowing its in England helps, but England is a big place, and is your place on a north or south facing slope? Are nearby structures or trees a limiting factor in accessing light?

Permaculture discussion forum

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3937


But I still say that unless you appoint( elect, choose) a strong leader that sets tough rules it will be doomed to failure...

This is from over twenty years of forming and being part of various groups... inevitably someone 'takes over' and the feuds start. Some are so strong that decades later though they are now apart, are still feuding and dragging others into the fray to pick sides.

Possible to do yes... especially if the group is kept small say 5-6 family units... as a base. Avoid singles at the outset because human nature will interfere... with 5-6 base families that share the vision it is possible to maintain

I also agree with Anchor... choose the high ground... always a good idea, not only for flooding, but look at any air polluted valley from a surrounding high point... you will see what I mean...

High ground is always good from a defensive point of view as well... its easier to spot trouble should it come your way...

Until I saw the causes of the fires in Australia it never occurred to me that you have the same problem with holligans that we do in LA... but be assured that when the SHTF, they will come looking for anyone that has a little safe nest...

Anchor and Reunite,

Around spring time this year I will travel up to the high country and have a look. My feeling is I can purchase my own abode down south in Melbourne; east of Port Phillip, around the Gurdies or somewhere like that for which I can have my own personal space with my little furry friends, and as I said forum members (including my angels in Sydney of course) whenever your in town quite welcome to lay your head down at Biggs' place, you and your lovely partners.

And besides that I am going to see if I can purchase some acreage somewhere with a natural spring and high enough to not get hemmed in by flood and then see what happens from there. That might be the go I think.

Here, as promised:

--
How Much Land?

A reader wrote and asked me, "How much land do you need for a few cows, hogs, chickens, ducks, etc." ?

Good question. First of all, figure out the space you need for buildings, driveways, and lawns.
Then add the space you want for a garden-and animals.

A Half Acre. This would allow you to keep a couple hives of bees, plant a fruit orchard, and keep a few grazing animals, such as 2 milk goats, 2 weaner pigs, 3-12 hens, and some
rabbits. If you have water, you could add a few ducks or geese. Put your orchard around the perimeter of your land, so you can have a permanent grass pasture in the center of it.
If you divide up the pasture with electric fence and rotate at intervals of 3 weeks or less, you can get more out of it. You'll need housing and yarding for all your animals, so they can be confined when the grass shows signs of failing under the onslaught.

On just a half acre, you'll have to compromise with livestock between a confined lifestyle and some opportunities to get out on pasture. But a half acre is really very small.

An Acre. Remember, we're not counting the house, lawn, etc. An acre is twice as good, of course, as a half. You could consider keeping a breed sow in place of the two weaner
pigs and profiting by her piglets. If you hate goat milk, you might keep a small breed of cow instead, although this is still rather small for a cow. You could raise a half-dozen goslings as well as chickens and rabbits. Your animals will be able to get a greater part oftheir diet from grazing.

Two Acres. This would be enough to comfortably pasture a cow and grow a sizable garden and.orchard, if all the soil is good and there's plenty of water to irrigate it. Three, four,
or five acres would be better.

Ten Acres. This is a mini-farm. You can install one or more ponds for raising fish and have numerous waterfowl too. You have enough land to have a nice grain patch or other
field crop in rotation, in addition to your pasture and pond.

Twenty Acres. With twenty acres of good garden land, you could probably make your family's living by growing something. Here we are talking about acres of fertile, irrigable ground. But they're hard to find, and costly. You're more likely to be offered wooded areas, steep hillsides, swamps, or shallow soils. But much depends on the skill of the gardener: the
one before you, and the one you are. There are people who have made lush garden spots in the arctic and in the tropics, on salt soil and on bare rock, and in abandoned gravel pits.

--

Now this is clearly an American book which does not acknowledge metric measures :)

Approx 2.5 acres is 1 Ha, most "Rural" category properties in Australia are 2 Ha, which is nearly 5Acres, out of that you might get 3 or 4 arable. Depends.

A..

Thanks Anchor my sweet,

I am looking at acreage in the high country still, places with underground .spring fed streams, dams, and fertile soil for fruit and nut trees, vegetable gardens that sort of thing.

I am also costing solar panels, generator, alternate building methods and alternative houses.

Much love. xo

what about south western australia .. that is very lush and green and remote ..
or rural NSW .. but anywhere near Byron Bay will be very expensive .. Coff Harbour area is nice ..

QLD is too dry I think .. in most places ..

What about South NSW ?

My intuition has been calling me to stay around the eastern side of Oz Izzy.

I was thinking Snowy River country here. If you google map Lake Eildon area and then go sort of? north east a bit I think you start to climb into the high country where you have good soil, mountainous areas everywhere, rivers, lakes, spring fed dams, and so on.

Now I have looked at some new building techniques that they are now using for housing which cuts down the use for fuel, helps with warming and cooling the living environment which I have found to be good ideas for a change.

Up in the high country clear thinking individuals have been using double glazed windows which not only give them great views but also keep them warm or cool depending on the temperature.

I seem to be tapping into some sort of dwellings they could be using in the future because I still feel I should have part of any dwelling I build to be under the ground. Because TPTB are not allowing us poor souls free energy which they already have at their disposal the only alternative I can come up with for that is solar panels, which naturally as everyone knows can cost up to $30,000 for a dwelling depending on its size to get one off the grid so to speak.

I am trying not to use the mind and use consciousness or intuition for anything like this.

BTW I have to once again ask if anyone else on the forum has managed to have a look at some Camelot interviews on Joseph Farrell, wow that was so interesting (he talks about hermetics, esoteric and occult knowledge that the nazis were using from 1920 up to now even, to build the bell project to bend space/time. That man had me glued to every word he said, he was brilliant Joseph Farrell.

At the moment watching the Russian Valery Uvarov which Kerry and Bill interviewed. He has researched and studied Egyptian ancient texts for decades and has some very intriguing hypotheses on where we have come from, the 2012 scenario and the pyramids. Again glued to his every word.

If anyone has watched these interviews I would appreciate your thoughts. Freezing here at the moment, brrrrrrr.

Hey Biggs I know how well your intuition works for you so follow what your heart tells you.

I looked at the Victoria area you (Biggs) mentioned on Google Earth. It certainly seems high enough. I didnt have time.

One thing to watch in hilly regions is if you are in a local valley then that can have lots of advantages, eg: reduced bushfire risk, potentially some protection from high wind (though it can be worse!). However one drawback can be that the sides of the valley act as sunshades and can reduce the number of daylight (sunshine) hours - if you are going solar then this is a factor. Another is drainage in severe wet weather.

You can use Google Earth to draw a 3D projection of the place you are interested in and use it to visualize the sun/shadows at different times of the day.

PS: For what its worth, my intuition tells me the same as Biggs. In 10-20 years time, the GDR might be the only bit of Australia showing above sea level; then after that the centre might pop up and be fertile - which is then the way I expect that part of the post ascension world to stay for a few thousand years.

Thus: step 1 is to move to the GDR, and live there for a while, then once the area's geology re-organizes move to the centre.

A..

Thanks A, A for angel, he, he.

I am afraid I am a bit dippy when it comes to all that stuff. I would probably look at the sky, think about what to do for placement of the panels, scratch me head, frown, scratch me nose, frown again, trying to get the grey matter working; then give up and get someone who knows what they are doing to work it out for me.

I must admit if I get this dwelling I have clearly in my mind off the ground, (sort of split level I suppose in a way), I would love to have double glazed windows looking out over a peaceful environment (that would be nice for the soul) and then I see me walking away from the window and living room, down a bit and then there are rooms that are sort of protected from the environment by being underground. It is hard to explain A, but I would like to see it done somewhere on some acres, fruit and nut trees, vege garden. I would get a run for my cats and dogs so they wouldn't get lost but could play and look at stuff, and then I would see if I could get another dwelling put somewhere on the land for people to come and stay for a while, live if they want, whatever.

I envision it in my mind, we will see what happens my sweet.

Much love and big hug to you. xo

Thats what I am doing too.

Everyday I see myself in my dream dwelling.

A..

hi biggels.......that sounds like the best idea i´ve ever heard........!!!!!!
you´ll need as much land as you can get......you can never have to much land with freash water.........

when you find your space and you need help planting fruit trees and a garden....... working the land ........ taking care of the animals........or building natural structures ............. i´ll be the first one to volunteer !!!! i´d love to help you !!!!!!

the sooner the better cause these things take time to get established.........

Thanks sweetie, your on. xo